OK, Brian, I invite you to join us now. So I see-- you're moving back and forth between these two. The Tim Ferriss Show Podcast | Free Listening on Podbean App One, on mainland Greece from the Mycenaean period, 16th century BC, and the other about 800 years later in modern day Turkey, another ritual potion that seemed to have suggested some kind of concoction of beer, wine, and mead that was used to usher the king into the afterlife. That they were what you call extreme beverages. Then I see the mysteries of Dionysus as kind of the Burning Man or the Woodstock of the ancient world. And I'm not even sure what that piece looks like or how big it is. The Immortality Key has its shortcomings. Whether there's a psychedelic tradition-- I mean, there are some suggestive paintings. Just imagine, I have to live with me. Theories of Origins about Witch Hunts - King's College Now, it's just an early indication and there's more testing to be done. So listening right now, there's at least one orthodox priest, there's at least one Catholic priest, an Episcopalian, an Anglican, and several others with whom I've been talking in recent months. And what we know about the wine of the time is that it was prized amongst other things not for its alcoholic content, but for its ability to induce madness. And anyone who drinks this, [SPEAKING GREEK], Jesus says in Greek, you remain in me and I in you. It was a pilgrimage site. Oh, I hope I haven't offended you, Brian. difficult to arrive at any conclusive hypothesis. Do you think that by calling the Eucharist a placebo that you're likely to persuade them? CHARLES STANG: Wonderful. So why the silence from the heresiologists on a psychedelic sacrament? #646: Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin The Eleusinian And according to Wasson, Hofmann, and Ruck, that barley was really a code word. According to Muraresku, this work, which "presents the pagan continuity hypothesis with a psychedelic twist," addresses two fundamental questions: "Before the rise of Christianity, did the Ancient Greeks consume a secret psychedelic sacrament during their most famous and well-attended religious rituals? And I think there are so many sites and excavations and so many chalices that remain to be tested. And to be quite honest, I'd never studied the ancient Greeks in Spain. That there is no hard archaeobotanical, archaeochemical data for spiked beer, spiked wine. And there are legitimate scholars out there who say, because John wanted to paint Jesus in the light of Dionysus, present him as the second coming of this pagan God. But even if they're telling the truth about this, even if it is accurate about Marcus that he used a love potion, a love potion isn't a Eucharist. CHARLES STANG: My name is Charles Stang, and I'm the director of the Center for the Study of World Religions here at Harvard Divinity School. So, I mean, my biggest question behind all of this is, as a good Catholic boy, is the Eucharist. Listen to #646: Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, Lessons from Scholar Karen Armstrong, and Much More, an episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, easily on Podbay - the best podcast player on the web. The Immortality Key: The Secret History of the Religion with No Name Show Plants of the Gods: Hallucinogens, Healing, Culture and Conservation podcast, Ep Plants of the Gods: S4E2. In the Classics world, there's a pagan continuity hypothesis with the very origin of Christianity, and many overt references to Greek plays in the Gospel of John. It was it was barley, water, and something else. So can you reflect for us where you really are and how you chose to write this book? The phrasing used in the book and by others is "the pagan continuity hypothesis". And so if there is a place for psychedelics, I would think it would be in one of those sacred containers within monastic life, or pilgrims who visit one of these monastic centers, for example. So it wasn't just a random place to find one of these spiked wines. What is its connection to Eleusis? Yeah. But it was just a process of putting these pieces together that I eventually found this data from the site Mas Castellar des Pontos in Spain. And when you speak in that way, what I hear you saying is there is something going on. It's a big question for me. What, if any, was the relationship between this Greek sanctuary-- a very Greek sanctuary, by the way-- in Catalonia, to the mysteries of Eleusis? And yet I talked to an atheist who has one experience with psilocybin and is immediately bathed in God's love. Jerry Brown wrote a good review that should be read to put the book in its proper place. This two-part discussion between Muraresku and Dr. Plotkin examines the role psychedelics have played in the development of Western civilization. 101. BRIAN MURARESKU: We can dip from both pies, Dr. Stang. Not because it was brand new data. I mean, this really goes to my deep skepticism. Was there any similarity from that potion to what was drunk at Eleusis? There he is. But what we do know is that their sacrament was wine and we know a bit more about the wine of antiquity, ancient Greek wine, than we can piece together from these nocturnal celebrations. It seems entirely believable to me that we have a potion maker active near Pompeii. Thank you, sir. What does that have to do with Christianity? This discussion on Febrary 1, 2021, between CSWR Director Charles Stang and Brian Muraresku about his new book, The Immortality Key: The Secret History of the Religion with No Name,a groundbreaking dive into the role of psychedelics in the ancient Mediterranean world. Not because it's not there, because it hasn't been tested. His aim when he set out on this journey 12 years ago was to assess the validity of a rather old, but largely discredited hypothesis, namely, that some of the religions of the ancient Mediterranean, perhaps including Christianity, used a psychedelic sacrament to induce mystical experiences at the border of life and death, and that these psychedelic rituals were just the tip of the iceberg, signs of an even more ancient and pervasive religious practice going back many thousands of years. The (Mistaken) Conspiracy Theory: In the Late Middle Ages, religious elites created a new, and mistaken, intellectual framework out of Christian heresy and theology concerning demons. The continuity theory proposes that older adults maintain the same activities, behaviors, personalities, and relationships of the past. That is about the future rather than the ancient history. Klaus Schmidt, who was with the German Archaeological Institute, called this a sanctuary and called these T-shaped pillars representations of gods. Did the potion at Eleusis change from generation to generation? By which I mean that the Gospel of John suggests that at the very least, the evangelist hoped to market Christianity to a pagan audience by suggesting that Jesus was somehow equivalent to Dionysus, and that the Eucharist, his sacrament of wine, was equivalent to Dionysus's wine. Things like fasting and sleep deprivation and tattooing and scarification and, et cetera, et cetera. OK-- maybe one of those ancient beers. This an absolute masterclass on why you must know your identity and goals before forming a habit, what the best systems are for habit. There are others claiming that there's drugs everywhere. They did not. CHARLES STANG: We're often in this situation where we're trying to extrapolate from evidence from Egypt, to see is Egypt the norm or is it the exception? And I want to ask you about specifically the Eleusinian mysteries, centered around the goddesses Demeter and Persephone. That is my dog Xena. To become truly immortal, Campbell talks about entering into a sense of eternity, which is the infinite present here and now. It was-- Eleusis was state-administered, a somewhat formal affair. It's funny to see that some of the first basilicas outside Rome are popping up here, and in and around Pompeii. Throughout his five books he talks about wine being mixed with all kinds of stuff, like frankincense and myrrh, relatively innocuous stuff, but also less innocuous things like henbane and mandrake, these solanaceous plants which he specifically says is fatal. And that's what I get into in detail in the book. So don't feel like you have to go into great depth at this point. But by and large, no, we don't really know. He comes to this research with a full suite of scholarly skills, including a deep knowledge of Greek and Latin as well as facility in a number of European languages, which became crucial for uncovering some rather obscure research in Catalan, and also for sweet-talking the gatekeepers of archives and archaeological sites. I'm not. This limestone altar tested positive for cannabis and frankincense that was being burned, they think, in a very ritualistic way. And I-- in my profession, we call this circumstantial, and I get it. BRIAN MURARESKU: OK. So whatever these [SPEAKING GREEK] libations incense were, the church fathers don't get into great detail about what may have been spiking them. And nor do I think that you can characterize southern Italy as ground zero for the spirit of Greek mysticism, or however you put it. So I want to propose that we stage this play in two acts. It was one of the early write-ups of the psilocybin studies coming out of Johns Hopkins. And this is at a time when we're still hunting and gathering. First act is your evidence for psychedelics among the so-called pagan religions in the ancient Mediterranean and Near East. So there's a whole slew of sites I want to test there. He decides to get people even more drunk. But they charge Marcus specifically, not with a psychedelic Eucharist, but the use of a love potion. Now, Carl Ruck from Boston University, much closer to home, however, took that invitation and tried to pursue this hypothesis. And in the ancient world, wine was routinely referred to as a [SPEAKING GREEK], which is the Greek word for drug. Psychedelics Today: Mark Plotkin - Bio-Cultural Conservation of the Amazon. There was an absence of continuity in the direction of the colony as Newport made his frequent voyages to and . But I want to ask you to reflect on the broader narrative that you're painting, because I've heard you speak in two ways about the significance of this work. Let me start with the view-- the version of it that I think is less persuasive. In the same place in and around Pompeii, this is where Christianity is really finding its roots. So it is already happening. 40:15 Witches, drugs, and the Catholic Church . I also sense another narrative in your book, and one you've flagged for us, maybe about 10 minutes ago, when you said that the book is a proof of concept. Mark and Brian cover the Eleusinian Mysteries, the pagan continuity hypothesis, early Christianity, lessons from famed religious scholar Karen Armstrong, overlooked aspects of influential philosopher William James's career, ancient wine and ancient beer, experiencing the divine within us, the importance of "tikkun olam"repairing and improving So if we can test Eucharistic vessels, I wouldn't be surprised at all that we find one. So there's a house preserved outside of Pompeii, preserved, like so much else, under the ash of Mount Vesuvius's eruption in the year 79 of the Common Era. And I guess my biggest question, not necessarily for you, but the psychedelic community, for what it's worth, or those who are interested in this stuff is how do we make this experience sacred? The mysteries of Dionysus, a bit weirder, a bit more off the grid. I include that line for a reason. I want to thank you for putting up with me and my questions. Now, I have no idea where it goes from here, or if I'll take it myself. What was the wine in the early Eucharist? So what evidence can you provide for that claim? And for some reason, I mean, I'd read that two or three times as an undergrad and just glossed over that line. The continuity theory of normal aging states that older adults will usually maintain the same activities, behaviors, relationships as they did in their earlier years of life. 13,000 years old. Now-- and I think that we can probably concede that. Now, let's get started, Brian. And I don't know what that looks like. In fact, he found beer, wine, and mead all mixed together in a couple of different places. And if you're a good Christian or a good Catholic, and you're consuming that wine on any given Sunday, why are you doing that? But in any case, Ruck had his career, well, savaged, in some sense, by the reaction to his daring to take this hypothesis seriously, this question seriously. And keep in mind that we'll drop down into any one of these points more deeply. The idea of the truth shall set you free, right, [SPEAKING GREEK], in 8:32. Because again, when I read the clinical literature, I'm reading things that look like mystical experiences, or that at least at least sound like them. So I think this was a minority of early Christians. President and CEO, First Southeast Financial Corp and First Federal Savings and Loan Director, Carolina First Bank and The South Financial Group 36:57 Drug-spiked wine . So again, that's February 22. 283. Mark and Brian cover the Eleusinian Mysteries, the pagan continuity hypothesis, early Christianity, lessons from famed religious scholar Karen Armstrong, overlooked aspects of influential philosopher William James's career, ancient wine and ancient beer, experiencing the divine within us, the importance of "tikkun olam"repairing and . And, as always the best way to keep abreast of this series and everything else we do here at the Center is to join our mailing list. This is going to be a question that's back to the ancient world. The Tim Ferriss Show | iHeart I'm going to come back to that idea of proof of concept. Copyright 2023 The President and Fellows of Harvard College, The Immortality Key: The Secret History of the Religion with No Name. Which is a very weird thing today. It's some kind of wine-based concoction, some kind of something that is throwing these people into ecstasy. I fully expect we will find it. But in Pompeii, for example, there's the villa of the mysteries, one of these really breathtaking finds that also survived the ravage of Mount Vesuvius. And I did not dare. So this is interesting. I'm paraphrasing this one. I'm happy to be proven wrong. And so that opened a question for me. Mark and Brian cover the Eleusinian Mysteries, the pagan continuity hypothesis, early Christianity, lessons from famed religious scholar Karen Armstrong, overlooked aspects of influential philosopher William James's career, ancient wine and ancient beer, experiencing the divine within us, the importance of "tikkun olam"repairing and . So we're going down parallel paths here, and I feel we're caught between FDA-approved therapeutics and RFRA-protected sacraments, RFRA, the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, or what becomes of these kinds of substances in any kind of legal format-- which they're not legal at the moment, some would argue. And I don't know if it's a genuine mystical experience or mystical mimetic or some kind of psychological breakthrough. You see an altar of Pentelic marble that could only have come from the Mount Pentelicus quarry in mainland Greece. And that is that there was a pervasive religion, ancient religion, that involved psychedelic sacraments, and that that pervasive religious culture filtered into the Greek mysteries and eventually into early Christianity. To be a Catholic is to believe that you are literally consuming the blood of Christ to become Christ. But with what were they mixed, and to what effect? We're going to get there very soon. What's significant about these features for our piecing together the ancient religion with no name? Tim Ferriss Show #646: Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin: The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, Psychedelics, and More. Now I understand and I appreciate the pharmaceutical industry's ability to distribute this as medicine for those who are looking for alternatives, alternative treatments for depression and anxiety and PTSD and addiction and end of life distress. Like in a retreat pilgrimage type center, or maybe within palliative care. And not least because if I were to do it, I'd like to do so in a deeply sacred ritual. In the first half, we'll cover topics ranging from the Eleusinian Mysteries, early Christianity, and the pagan continuity hypothesis to the work of philosopher and psychologist William James. But I think there's a decent scientific foothold to begin that work. I am so fortunate to have been selected to present my thesis, "Mythology and Psychedelics: Taking the Pagan Continuity Hypothesis a Step Further" at. I expect there will be. And again, it survives, I think, because of that state support for the better part of 2,000 years. And I'm trying to reconcile that. Tim Ferriss is a self-experimenter and bestselling author, best known for The 4-Hour Workweek, which has been translated into 40+ languages. So I think it's really interesting details here worth following up on. An actual spiked wine. And considering the common background of modern religions (the Pagan Continuity hypothesis), any religious group who thinks they are chosen or correct are promoting a simplistic and ignorant view of our past. For me, that's a question, and it will yield more questions. He was greatly influenced by Sigmund Freud (1940) who viewed an infant's first relationship - usually with the mother - as "the prototype of all later love-relations". And that's where oversight comes in handy. And in his book [? And I got to say, there's not a heck of a lot of eye rolling, assuming people read my afterword and try to see how careful I am about delineating what is knowable and what is not and what this means for the future of religion. Certainly these early churchmen used whatever they could against the forms of Christian practice they disapproved of, especially those they categorized as Gnostic. BRIAN MURARESKU: I'm bringing more illumination. Because my biggest question is, and the obvious question of the book is, if this was happening in antiquity, what does that mean for today? Now we're getting somewhere. 55 This is very likely as it seems that the process had already started in the 4th century. BRIAN MURARESKU: Now we're cooking with grease, Dr. Stang. It's this 22-acre site of free-standing limestone, some rising 20 feet in the air, some weighing 50 tons. Tim Ferriss Show Podcast Notes